STEFAN, 10: “I SUSPECT HE’LL GO WITH MY LITTLE BROTHER LATER”, 1986
The following interviews with ten-year-old Stefan and his mother were published in Denmark in 1986 in Forbrydelse uden offer, a study of those involved in adult/child sexual relationships (but mostly Greek love ones) edited by the “Trobriands” collective of authors and translated from the Danish by Dr. E. Brongersma in 1992 as Crime without Victims.
The authors use the word "paedophile" to mean anybody sexually attracted to children under the Danish age of consent of fifteen. In most cases this was incorrect since most of the children described in their book were pubescent boys and their relationships thus Greek love. In the case described here, it might be thought that the word is being correctly used, since Stefan was only ten, and that this interview should not therefore be on a website devoted to Greek love. What is known is not enough for certainty, but on balance it has been thought that the relationship appears to be Greek in character, partly because Stefan's mother was convinced that both man and boy were "in love", suggesting their emotions were not at the childish level characteristic of pedophilia, and partly because Stefan believed his lover was normally attracted to boys of 12 or 13.
"I suspect he'll go with my little brother later"
I got to know Christian through Torben, my mother's lover. He came to my birthday party.
What happened on your birthday?
I baked cake figures and got presents, including an old tape recorder that didn't work very well. Christian repaired it.
You became friends because he repaired your tape recorder?
Yes, and because he was good with computers. I went to his home and saw his computer. We became better and better friends, and he also came here.
What did you do together?
We took a trip to Copenhagen. We went to Tivoli. We won a lot of things at the shooting stand. He was terribly good at that. He won all the time.
Did you know that Christian was a paedophile?
I didn't know what it meant, but then Lasse began to talk about child-lovers and such things.
Who was Lasse?
He was one of Christian's friends. At first I thought that paedophiles were people who tied little children to a pole and danced a war dance around them and then ate them for dinner. Later I asked Christian if paedophiles were, in fact, like this. He said they weren't. So I was more relieved.
Did you know that Christian and Lasse were paedophiles?
Yes, I found out. Lasse told that he had even been in prison because of it.
What did you think when you heard that Christian was a paedophile?
Nothing special. He was my friend. I thought that he was sweet.
Could you see that he liked you very much?
Not at first. That came later. Every time a handsome boy passed us he would say, "Oh-oh-oh," and such. So I thought he was only interested in boys about twelve or thirteen years old. Then he told me about another boy he had known. And so it happened.
We started with this great kingdom.
You started what?
The great kingdom. We began...
It was he who began?
Yes, and so I jumped into it too. But he didn't begin at once - wro-o-o-om! That came a little bit later on.
That is difficult to explain.
Did he say that you were beautiful?
Did he kiss you?
What did he do, then?
I can't remember very well.
What did you do together?
What did you think afterwards?
Do you feel embarrassed about discussing it?
Will you tell me something about it?
About how you started doing it.
I've already told you.
I thought at first that he only had eyes for girls. One day we were walking and he said, "The fifth person we meet, we shall go to bed with." First a lady passed and he said "Pooh." Then an old man passed and he said "Pooh" again. And then no more came. He told me that he didn't like girls, but liked boys. He showed me a few pictures of a boy he had known and told me stories about him.
How often do you meet?
Every day. We never skip a day.
How often do you do it?
Go to bed together.
Once a week?
No. Perhaps once or twice a day. Sometimes three times.
Is it you who wants to do it so often, or is it him?
It's both of us.
Do you ever not want to?
Sometimes I'd rather do something else.
Do you ever want to when Christian doesn't?
Yes, it's sometimes me, sometimes him.
What happens then?
If one of us doesn't want to do it we just don't do it.
Do you sleep together?
Always. No, we didn't for three nights.
What else do you do together?
We go sailing. Sometimes we go to Odense and have a meal. Sometimes we go to the beach for a swim. Sometimes my little brother comes with us. But it's not so much fun when he comes along.
He thinks that he can decide about everything. He says, for example, "Torben is my friend and Christian is yours."
And what does your mother say?
She says, "Oh, you two are always quarrelling about who is your best friend."
What does your mother think about Christian?
She thinks that he is sweet.
Does Torben think so too?
Torben thinks Christian is a genius. He's an expert in computers and everything else. Today he repaired our radio. It was buzzing. He said, "I'll fix it right now; there's only something wrong with the antenna."
How do you usually spend your day?
I go to school and Christian works.
What happens when you come home from school?
I don't always go straight home from school. Sometimes I play a little handball or go to the recreation centre. Sometimes we go to the city and sometimes we go to Lasse's.
Do you ever play with your friends?
At school, not at home.
Did you ever do it?
No. Yes, perhaps in the first grade. This was before I got to know Christian.
How long do you think you'll continue to be with Christian?
That is a difficult question. You almost have to be a professor to answer it.
I suspect he'll go with my little brother later.
You think, then, if that happens, he won't want to be with you any more?
And then you'll look for another friend?
I don't know. I can't tell that now.
Perhaps a woman?
Never in my life.
Women are stupid?
Your mother too?
That's different. She is very sweet. I've always thought so.
Do you like Torben too?
Yes, but not in the same way.
Does he play with you sometimes?
Not now, but before I knew Christian...
When something very fine happens between you and Christian don't you feel tempted to tell your friends about it?
No, because something could happen to Christian - it could be reported to the police.
You're afraid of the police?
Yes, a little bit.
What do you think the police would do?
They would certainly say, "Now, Stefan, tell us what you do together. You'll get a fried sausage afterwards!" They will certainly also say that Christian is corrupting little children.
And what would you say to them?
That it's not true.
Do you think the police will come?
They might. Some day.
How could the police find out?
Some witches live in the neighbourhood, and if they find out they will call the police. But I made an agreement with my mother that she would pretend to be Christian's fiancé.
But she's engaged to Torben.
She can have two lovers at the same time.
How old do you think a person should be before he can have sex?
Shortly after I became acquainted with Torben - we were in Kloster Moster, a music place here in Svendborg - we met one of Torben's good friends, Christian. We invited him to visit us at home and he came to Stefan's birthday party. My family was there too, and a number of friends. Christian spent a lot of time in the children's room that day, together with Torben. One of Stefan's presents was a tape recorder which he needed to be shown how to use. Stefan was very, very happy that day.
Christian came again the next day. Stefan became quite interested in this young man, in part because he played in an orchestra. A few days later they went to Copenhagen together and Christian started sleeping every night in our home. Stefan was quite infatuated with him and they roamed the town together. I kept entirely out of it.
Did you foresee all that later happened?
No, I didn't. Even though I knew quite well that Christian was very fond of children, I could only see that Stefan was happy in those days. He was happier than I had seen him in years, and I knew that it was because of Christian. It was clear to me that Stefan was in love.
Was he indeed?
It radiated out from him. He behaved the same way I do when I'm in love. I have never seen him so happy. He was singing all the time and chattering about Christian. He really could not be bothered with anything else. They were always showering together, chattering, fooling around and locking the door. It was fine with me.
When did you realise that they were having sexual relations?
Two or three weeks after Stefan's birthday. I wanted to know, so I asked Christian point blank if they were having sex. He said, "Yes, something is going on." I didn't know exactly what was happening. I had a vague idea of how paedophiles made love, but I never asked them. Stefan came once to me and asked what he should do because he couldn't get an orgasm. I was glad he came to me with his problem. This was the only time I discussed it with Stefan.
He plays up to Christian. For example, he puts a ladle between his legs. Or maybe he'll say, "You want to step inside for a suck?" He caresses Christian quite openly. I think that's nice.
What do you think he gets out of the relationship?
Stefan had never had a close contact with a man. I have lived with two men with whom he had no relationship at all; they just hated and insulted him. No body contact whatever. Now his need for this is being satisfied, and that is important, a very good thing in my opinion.
Stefan was always jealous of his little brother because he visits his father. Stefan never saw his own father. This is the first time that Stefan has had a relationship with a man.
Couldn't he have such a relationship without sex?
Easily, but he wants the sex, too. That radiates out from him.
He has said that he is afraid that Christian is more interested in his little brother?
I don't believe that's true. Stefan is simply being jealous.
Why is he jealous?
I don't know, but he must be allowed to live this love to the end. Nobody must hold him back. Besides, this relationship has strengthened the relationship between the two of us, too. I'm now permitted to touch and kiss him, which he had not let me do for some years.
How often do they meet?
Every day. It has become a daily event for all of us, to be together with so many people, and I think it's fine. I have a lot of confidence in Christian and I am only really concerned when he is with other paedophiles.
What do you fear?
I'm afraid he'll make more adult friends, that he'll forget that somebody is in love with him right here. It is not very often you'll find parents who thinks it's all right when their child falls in love with an adult. I sometimes get the feeling of being exploited, but this fades away when I see what a good time Stefan is having.
There have been periods when I thought the relationship was becoming too much, that Stefan was forgetting to play with friends of his own age. But he has now reached the point where he can sometimes choose to be with his friends and not with Christian. I think this is very good.
It has been a month now since I last talked to Stefan. Has something happened in the meantime?
Yes. One Saturday morning I saw two well-dressed men walking towards me. I knew immediately that they were police officers. I was afraid. I started trembling and felt very bad.
They came in and introduced themselves. They wanted me to tell them what I knew about Christian. This I did, and added that he was a paedophile. They didn't know what the word meant, but they couldn't understand why I wasn't afraid of him - a paedophile assaults every child he approaches.
I could not accept this description. I told them that Christian came often to our house because I liked him very much and because he worked with Torben in some affairs. And that of course Stefan and he had also been together a lot, but that there was no reason at all to suppose that there was anything sexual between them.
They didn't believe me and wanted to talk with Stefan. I allowed this, but only on my conditions, which were that I should lead the conversation. Stefan was fascinated with the police and asked if he could see their badges and guns. That was all right. He chattered the whole time. I thought, "Shut up, this is going wrong!" I told Stefan why they had come. I said that it was because Christian was suspected of having molested him - I think I even used the word "fuck", that they had fucked together which was, of course, illegal.
They asked him whether Christian ever tried to undress him. He answered that he was quite able to do this for himself. And they asked if Christian had ever asked him to touch his peepee. He only said, "Pooh!"
So they left and said they wouldn't do anything further in this case. None of us believed them.
Christian came that same evening. I told him what had happened and that it had gone well. I was terribly annoyed by it, for his sake. He has been haunted by the police and by the courts his whole life, and only because he is a paedophile. Stefan was happy to see him again. The police couldn't destroy their love! I was incredibly happy to see that.
A few weeks later the police returned. They wanted to see some pictures they thought Christian had made of Stefan. I signed a declaration allowing them to search the whole house, but of course they found nothing. I had taken anything there was away.
We didn't dare to let Christian sleep over with us any longer. They threatened to take the children away from me. It was an empty threat, but when they say such things to me it only makes me more stubborn.
How did Stefan take it?
I think it is a terrible pity that he is not allowed to live this love through without interference from the outside world. But he takes it like boys of his age usually take such things. He thinks it's fun to play cowboys and Indians with the police. But I have given him some of my fears, because I don't want them to break him during an examination. I'm afraid that one day they'll come to look for him at school and question him when I'm not there.
Torben and I have talked with a psychologist whom we know. He has also interviewed Stefan a few times. If the social workers and health authorities interfere, we can now say that Stefan is already seeing a psychologist, in which case they would be obliged to use our psychologist in any criminal case they might want to bring.
What do you think is going to happen?
For our own sakes I hope we will be successful in keeping the relationship hidden, that it will become second nature for us to hide it. I am angry about this for Stefan - that he has to hide his love. But we are forced to do so. The positive side is that he is not alone. Most boys have to hide these things from their parents too.
You think it can go on?
I hope it can continue just as long as Stefan wants it to. I hope when it ends, he will do it and not somebody else. But he has also become paranoid and almost doesn't dare to do anything sexual with Christian. He's afraid somebody will catch them. Imagine being in such a situation! It is not the way one would have wished to see one's child's first love evolve.
He says that when he's an adult he wants to be either a paedophile or gay. He must decide this for himself. Let him try out everything. But I would not like him to become a paedophile.
Did you have any sexual experiences as a child?
No, I didn't. I come from a home where I never saw my parents naked. I didn't know they fucked. I was told that children were brought by the stork.
For many, many years I was sexually miserable. I believe that was because of my ignorance. The first time I went to bed with a boy it was done in secret and I couldn't talk to anybody about it. I didn't have the slightest idea what you even did. As a result of all of this, I made up my mind that, by God, my own children would not grow up that way!
 Published by Global Academic Publishers, Amsterdam in 1993.